Playing for 2nd



  • @Olim-Nagev

    • Just as you like your text :page_facing_up: plain, I like mine with :tada: :smiley_cat: emojis :crying_cat_face: :sparkles: Why should that upset you so, I wonder?

    • I did not shame or blame you! Read my post again, I clearly said it´s your choice to play any style you want to.

    • You wrote: "but you do care about becoming 2nd". No I don´t. I don´t give a toss :poop: for Elo. But I like to be able to play, not just roll and pass the dice.

    • In my book, Catan is not or at least not only a mere war game. It is a strategic game, but unlike chess, for example, you can build :construction: and create things. :house_with_garden: That is the part I like best about it. Others might enjoy different aspects of the game, but there is no "one size fits all" in Catan.

    • On a more serious note, since you mentioned it: I don´t believe that in war all means are ok . If you read history, you will find that many nations and warlords had to learn this at their expense! If they went to far, they created more resistence, and lost in the long run.

    • Just as you can choose the style you want to play, I can choose with whom I want to play - or don´t want to play :no_entry_sign:

    • You worry, if I put players who´s style I don´t like on my ignore list, I won´t find enough opponents anymore. So far, that has never been my problem. But if I had the choice of playing an utterly boooooring :anguished: game, or none at all, I would rather do something else with my time. I meant it when I said, I´d rather clean my toilet! :toilet: :sweat_smile:



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  • @Rumpelstilzchen Edit by @administrators: Keep all your comments family friendly and do not use harmful language towards your fellow Catanains.



  • @Olim-Nagev I'd like to thank Olim very much for articulating the philosophy behind this playstyle so much better than I could. Thank you Olim. You're a better messenger than I -- that's for sure. For instance, I lack the sort of restraint to attract bees when the bees are clearly retarded.

    Thanks.



  • @Crymoricus Name calling is not going to make your argument more convincing.
    It just convinces me that there is no point in having a serious discussion with you. :baby:
    If you need to feel superior for playing a different style than I do, go puff yourself up. No need to respond, I am not interested in your opinion anymore. :-1:



  • @Rumpelstilzchen

    “Just as you like your text plain, I like mine with emojis. Why should that upset you so, I wonder?”
    I never said that you spamming with emoji's "upset" me, because it doesn't. I merely said that I think it's highly annoying because it makes reading your comments tiresome.

    “I did not shame or blame you!”
    And you said earlier:
    “I am one of the players who really loathe this new fashion of playing for second rank.”
    Well, if you loathe the playstyle, it only makes sense that you’d loathe the players. Same as when you loath animal abuse, you loathe the animal abusers. I think this is a fair comparison. So when you loathe certain players for playing a certain way and you’re taking time to express your opinions about it on a forum, then it sounds to me like you’re trying to “shame” the players who favor this “playing for 2nd place when it’s the smartest thing to do to limit damage” playstyle.

    “If you read history, you will find that many nations and warlords had to learn this at their expense! If they went to far, they created more resistence, and lost in the long run.”
    By saying “all is fair in WAR”, I didn’t meant that I think that doing everything you want in war will always be the most effective way of winning the war. I was only saying that in the game of Catan you are allowed to do anything as long as you don’t break the rules, A.I. “all is fair” as long as you follow the rules of war.

    “Just as you can choose the style you want to play, I can choose with whom I want to play - or don´t want to play”
    And that is your good right, you can do whatever you want.
    “You worry, if I put players who´s style I don´t like on my ignore list, I won´t find enough opponents anymore. So far, that has never been my problem. But if I had the choice of playing an utterly boooooring game, or none at all, I would rather do something else with my time.”
    I merely said that I think it’s dumb to completely block people, so you can’t play with them anymore and vice versa, for the only reason being that you don’t like their completely rational playstyle of trying to minimise loss when the time calls for it, which can result in boring games SOMETIMES .

    “I meant it when I said, I´d rather clean my toilet!”
    When we meet up in a game and you end up in last place you can always clean my toilet to pass the time. :tongue:



  • @Crymoricus
    You're very welcome my dude! :punch:
    I would also like to thank you for bringing up this topic. I have found people whining and crying about being robbed when they were last in place annoying as hell, and still do, and it's good to get these things of my chest for once.

    Don't let the retardation of these weak-minded folks bother you anymore. Just play the way you want and have fun doing it! :fire: :smiling_imp: :fire:



  • @Olim-Nagev
    @Stroom
    “Playing for 2nd place is completely stupid.”
    “If you give the win away, you give away the 1st place for yourself.”
    So in a game where the leader has won the game already, and he is unstoppable beyond the shadow of a doubt, you would rather finish dead last instead of taking at least 2nd spot for yourself? You don’t find that dumb? I think you missed the context of what Crymoricus said at the start of this thread if you think that we’re talking about only playing for 2nd spot every game… Ever heard of nuance bro? (Lol, and I’m not talking about the YouTuber)

    Yes. I would resist until the bitter end. Especially if it is a standalone game (not a tournament or whatever).
    In most cases when people give up there is still a chance. And I have seen SERIOUS comebacks. Players who give up in the middle of the game just ruin these comeback chances. Playing for 2nd spot is dumb because YOU STILL LOSE! Nothing except the 1st place matters.

    It's a game. The place does not matter. What matters is giving your best to WIN. Only getting 10 points first matters (or more in some scenarios). There are actually no 2nd, 3rd or 4th place in this game for me. It is either win or lose. I am talking about one game. In tournaments, yes, I would play for max points. But in one separate game... You must give everything to get that win. Otherwise, why are you even playing?



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  • @Olim-Nagev said:

    I never said that you spamming with emoji's "upset" me, because it doesn't. I merely said that I think it's highly annoying because it makes reading your comments tiresome.

    Dude, you then went on to insult her after this, clearly you were upset - can't you at least have a little accountability for what you said!? Your needlessly long essay was littered with insults and makes you seem less like a strong player and rather more immature and worth avoiding in game play, and this tone is continued in each of your responses here.

    You keep referring to the rules of war, but you don't seem to be aware of the Geneva Convention, the actual rules of war which protect those who are no longer part of the battle. It would seem that robbing the hopelessly last person for your benefit goes directly against the rules of war. And in life, sure all isn't fair but we have laws and beyond that we have social contract that define acceptable behaviour, doing whatever you want to get ahead, regardless of the cost, is considered a mental disorder.

    I highly doubt that if someone such as OP is regularly getting accused of unsportsmanlike conduct, they are less likely to be securing 2nd at the last possible statistically supported moment, but rather being a jerk through their entire game play. I've seen more than enough games where the 2nd place player is robbing some person with 2 points allowing another player to get critical game deciding advantage, or the endless games where robbing is more for revenge over some imaginary slight rather than for tactical or strategic value.

    So sure, there are times when protecting 2nd is necessary and smart, or robbing a weaker player allows you to clinch a key position, and I doubt anyone would really complain about that - it's just all the other times when someone is having their game destroyed pointlessly while another player pulls away into the lead is where most of the frustration comes from.



  • TBH, at the very least, this is highlighting that the "friendly robber feature" that was available in Catan Online is lacking in Catan Universe, as that feature allowed people to indicate whether they were there for a fun game or cut throat game.

    Sure, you can specify friend robber (and card stack) in the custom game, but then you can only really do that when you have a group of existing friends currently online to play with -- you can't pick that under "auto match" where you want a friendly match with strangers.



  • You people try to shame people like me, and others like me, who want to play for best position by saying that it's somehow "unfair" or "rude".... When all I care about is not finishing last. How can you not see that having those demands is so unfair and restricting in itself?

    I say, just let people play the way they want to!
    But I guess that's too much to ask from judgmental people like you...

    Well, have fun finishing last (when instead you could at least have some small victory) I guess.



  • @Olim-Nagev No you should be ashamed of the way you talk about others, if you look back at the long list of insults you put in your essay. Who said I'm coming last, or that I don't fight for 2nd. I just don't go destroying 3rd/4th place on a regular basis in order to do so nor do I not give the 1st place player a solid challenge up to the last moment.



  • @MonkeyZ

    First of all, I don’t really care that you’re “offended”, I care about what is true . And what is true is that there are no officially written rules about game play “etiquette” concerning how to play with this online Catan game and people complaining and whining about being treated “unfairly” is just ridiculously to me .

    Secondly, it seems to me that you’re purposely trying to misrepresent what I’ve said in earlier comments on this thread by claiming that the “insults” where nothing more than insults. And it seems that you do this to try to undermine and overlook my arguments concerning the topic that we’re talking about here, which seems pretty dishonest and low to me……….
    You say that I should be “ASHAMED”:rage: for having written a “long list of insults” .
    So fine, let’s just take a look at what I’ve said here then and see what I said was so insulting… Because as far as I can see I’ve only said TWO things which were merely meant to underline my position, and this seemed to be very reasonable arguments to me. I assume you’re talking about these following statements (the “insults” I’ll put in bold for you)… If I missed something do let me know.

    • “Even if you don’t care about ELO score it just doesn’t make sense to accept unnecessary defeat like that, unless you’re a beta pussy or something…

    • “But people who would deny that there definitely are moments when the leader will win without a doubt because he statistically (numbers and income wise) absolutely has the upper hand and is impossible to catch up with, and that the only logical course of action (and most productive one) then would be to start playing for 2nd spot, I think those people are either dishonest as$holes or complete idiots!

    So these two statements are literally ALL I said which could be misconstrued as merely “insults”. I found one more comment but this could be perceived as nothing more than an observation IMO, being…

    • “I have found people whining and crying about being robbed when they were last in place annoying as hell, and still do, and it's good to get these things of my chest for once.
      Don't let the retardation of these weak-minded folks bother you anymore.”

    I personally find the first two statements not shockingly insulting, considering the way I used them to simply underline my position and seeing the context in which I used them. And I clearly haven’t used them as some sort of Ad hominem but they were always used with a purpose to underline my position and nothing more.
    So tell me, where is this “longs list of insults”?
    Because if you think those first two statements (which were from my “essay”) are too “insulting” and you can’t handle them, then I think you should stay in your save space away from the internet if you’re so easily “offended”.

    I do want to say that impulsively I’ve said some things which I would like to take back, being my statement about “all is fair in WAR” and “survival of the fittest” because, like you’ve said (eloquently if I may say so), those things are something that do matter in this reality that we’re sharing. But the point I was merely trying to make with these statements was that players may do anything they want in the game as long as they don’t break the rules of Catan (which is impossible to do with this online game unless you’re a hacker). I wasn’t trying to say that in life itself everything is fair because it’s all a game of winning or losing or something like that because that of course would be ridiculous and concerning if a person truly had those views of the world (and morality).

    All I want with this game is to have fun by playing the way I want to and see others do the same. And to me that is the challenge of finishing each game in the best position .
    From the start of the game my goal is always to finish 1st place.
    If at some point in the game I recognize that (due to statistical facts, income of the opponents etc.) it is extremely unlikely for me to finish 1st place, then I will do everything in my power to finish 2nd.
    And when I have extremely bad starting positions at the very start of the game, and mid game I am far behind 1st and 2nd place and recognize that it’s statistically impossible to finish 1st place, only then will I also do everything in my power to obstruct the 2nd player, to at least have a chance of finishing 2nd.
    The rest of the time I always play to win! So in games when players are leveling in VP’s evenly I always rob and obstruct the one who seems to have the strongest position to me at that time.
    I really can’t see what you people find so unreasonable (or even “shameful”) about all of this... :confused:

    And the reason why I take my time to resist against the criticism against this playstyle of “playing for best position”, is because I find it to be so very intolerant and unfair of people to blame others for wanting to play this way, and even shame them for it by saying things like that this way of playing is “completely stupid” and that they will even “put people on their ignore list” because of it.

    I do sympathize with what Rumpelstilchen said before about that it sucks to be robbed when you ‘re already last place and that you’re not able to build a lot but I’d still say that is just “tough luck”. It happens to the best players and just because you’re unlucky to be the player last in line in a game when the winner has clearly already been decided that doesn’t mean that it’s “wrong” for the 2nd placed player to simply want to finish 2nd and secure this spot, instead of giving you as the last player the opportunity to kick him from 2nd to 3rd place. Of course there are those games where it’s very hard to determine when someone has truly won and when it’s time to start playing for 2nd spot but I think people should let other players be able that to determine that for themselves, instead of trying to impose their subjective opinion about who is more likely to win at that moment.
    And while some hold the subjective opinion that it’s always the most effective and fairest way of playing to always only rob and obstruct the leading player, I think it’s wrong to undermine other people’s opinions about what is effective and fair because there are just so many factors to consider when determining what is the most effective way of playing.

    The only thing I want is for people being able to play the way they want to without them being blamed and shamed for it.
    If you want to play to always “resist until the bitter end” like Stroom mentioned, then that is your personal choice , do that and have fun!
    If you want to play to always finish with the best position, then that is your personal choice , do that and have fun!
    But what I absolutely can’t stand and will not accept is when people try to keep others from playing a certain way by blaming and shaming them for doing so, and that they’re even resorting to “scare tactics” like saying that they’re going to block you etc. if you’re not willing to play the way they want to!

    Just play the way you want to, have fun doing it, and let others do the same!
    Everything else in Catan is fair game! :v:



  • @MonkeyZ

    And BTW I do very much like your idea of implementing an option to play with "friendly robber" in automatch games, so @Administrators please add this to the game! :wave:


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